Faith Under Fire: A Pastor’s Journey Through War ► Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Brian Stiller

Hello and welcome to evangelical 360. My name is Brian Stiller, Global Ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance and host of this new podcast series. At evangelical 360, I interview leaders, writers and influencers about contemporary issues impacting Christian life around the world. My hope is that it will not only be a global meeting place where faith is explored from different perspectives, but that each person listening will come away informed, encouraged, challenged and even inspired.

Today on evangelical 360, my guest is Mykola Savchuk, pastor of one of the largest churches in downtown Kyiv, and for the past two years he has lived in the middle of the war unleashed by Russia on Ukraine. Pastor Mykola knows as much about what has gone on following this invasion as anyone I know. How has he survived? What has been his experience caring for a large congregation in the midst of ongoing war? I think you’ll be intrigued by his responses to these important questions and more.

Welcome, pastor Mykola, to evangelical 360. So good to have you with us and help us to understand the nature of ministry in a war-torn country. I remember you and I were preaching together in your church just weeks before the Russian army invaded, but I wonder where were you and what were your thoughts when you heard that morning in February that Russia had invaded.

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

That night it was the 24th of February, I was at my home and I was sleeping. I woke up at 5 am because of explosions, because at that night Russia attacked Ukraine with a lot of missiles unexpected, because everyone was sleeping at the time.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, I just want to explain to those watching that there’s a bit of an interruption in the transmission because the Russian army continues to bomb you even today as we’re talking, and so you had to go on your mobile rather than the landline. So there will be a bit of interruption. But I’m interested in knowing that first Sunday, Russia has invaded, people have been killed, apartments and houses have been bombed and you stand before your people in the Salvation Church in Kyiv. What do you preach about that morning?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

You know, the first service is. It was very difficult. Usually on Sundays we had up to 3,000 people, but that morning it was only 300. Thousands of people, but that morning it was only 300.

That’s why I just said that we need hope and I preached from the first chapter of James. I preached about all tribulations, all difficulties that we can have as believers, and also I preached that even in these tribulations we can have as believers, and also I preach that even in these tribulations we can find joy and we can find our inner peace in our Lord, only in Christ alone. That’s why I also ask people to believe in Christ, to have hope in Christ, and also to use these problems to preach gospel everywhere we can. It was a difficult time but it was our chance to cry to God and to ask Him for help and at that time it was something special in the atmosphere. From one side it was fear, but from another side it was something special in atmosphere. From one side it was fear, but from another side it was hope and it was our faith that God is still with us at that moment.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, I want to come back to what it means to pastor in a war-torn country, but I think it would be really interesting and helpful for us to get a sense of Ukraine and Russia and your history. I know that Prince Vladimir in 980 converted and had all the people under his rulership baptized to be Christian. So you have the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox, but the Russian, the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, has blessed the Russian army for its invasion. That just seems really curious and off-center to those of us that don’t know enough about your country. Give us a sense of how that came about and what it looks like on the ground to you now.

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Unfortunately, Russian Orthodox Church is very closely affiliated with Russian government and if you ever see the symbol of Russia and, of course, the symbol of Russian Empire, it is like an eagle with two heads and these two heads are symbols of church and government together. That’s why in Russia, it’s like a part of their culture that the church, orthodox Church and Russian government are always united, and I think it’s a big problem for the country and it’s a big problem for the country and it’s a big problem for the church, because when the government decided to invade my country, the Russian Orthodox Church was on the side of government and even blessed the army, blessed the weapon, and it was horrible because it’s opposite to everything our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ, taught. And that’s why for Ukrainian Orthodox Church, it was a horrible surprise how their brothers, also Orthodox people from Russia, can support this decision. That’s why there is a division now between Orthodox churches in Russia and in Ukraine and of course, we understand that we are praying to the same God, but we are that their prayers about weapon and army and all this invasion, you know all these prayers are right in God’s eyes because they bless crimes, war crimes, they bless murdering people, and I think that it’s a big spiritual problem with the Russian Orthodox Church now. That’s why in this time we’re just asking God to help us defend our country, and we understand that it’s even difficult to call Russian Christians brothers and sisters because of all the situation now.

Brian Stiller

Given that your history and your relationship with Slavic people, Ukrainians and Russians, so you have this long history of fellowship. So how do you, as a pastor, deal with the deep hatred that obviously rises from your own people as it relates to their anger against what Russia is doing and has done at this?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

time. We understand that before the finish of this war we even cannot speak about such things like forgiveness, because we don’t understand now how many things we will be able to forgive later. We even don’t know about all crimes that will be done by the Russian army in the future. That’s why now, when we are talking about forgiveness, it’s too, you know, it’s like too early to talk about this. I can compare this to the situation when some criminal is attacking a victim and at that time it’s not appropriate to talk to victim. Forgive this person At first. We need to stop this criminal victim. Forgive this person At first. We need to stop this criminal and only after that we can say to this victim okay, and now, when you are protected, now when you are safe, let’s talk about inner healing and let’s talk about forgiveness. So now we are not preaching even about forgiveness between two nations. We’re preaching about forgiveness only in the matter of personal relationship, not between nations.

Brian Stiller

It would be helpful for people to understand that major period in the 1930s called Holodomor, when millions of Ukrainians starved to death at the hand of Stalin. That must have had an incredible effect on how you see even Russia today, does it not?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Looking at our history, we can see that Russia was dominating over Ukraine maybe for 400 years since, and Russia was always trying to dominate over Ukraine and they considered Ukraine to be a part of Russian Empire. And it was always difficult to build this relationship, because when someone is calling himself an older brother, I just can say that Kane also was an older brother to Abel, you know. That’s why it is a long story. It’s several hundred years of oppression from the Russian Empire to the Ukrainian people and, of course, during the Soviet period of time it was a period of the Russian Revolution and the invasion of Ukraine. It was the first time when the Ukrainian state was created officially. It was called Ukrainian National Republic, and then Russia invaded in this republic and ruined Ukraine.

After that, Russia made Ukraine the part of Soviet Union and then, of course, in Stalin times we had this Holodomor, the period of starvation, and we had a lot of persecutions for Ukrainian Christians, especially evangelical Christians. And 30 years ago, when Ukraine finally got its independence, it was very powerful because we received our freedom, we got back the sense of our dignity, and after that Russia just didn’t deny its plans to invade and to dominate over Ukraine again. So it’s horrible. It’s a very, very long story and it’s very painful for Ukrainian people.

Brian Stiller

In 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed? Did not that usher in a whole new era in Ukraine, an evangelistic initiative where many people came to faith in Christ, thousands of churches were built. What happened in that post-1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Empire and the release of Ukraine to be its own country, you know?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Ukrainian church experienced a big revival in 90s because, as you said, soviet Union collapsed and it was a period of religious freedom.

A lot of churches were launched, a lot of ministries were started were launched, a lot of ministries were started and what is ironical is that a lot of Ukrainian missionaries came to Russia to preach gospel there, to Siberia and to other regions of Russia, and Ukraine was, like you know, the most missionary place in this part of the world.

A lot of missionaries from Ukraine went to all former Soviet Union to preach gospel and to start churches everywhere. I think that the level of religious freedom in Ukraine was much higher than the level of religious freedom in any other country of former Soviet Union. We can preach gospel everywhere. We don’t need any special permission to preach gospel on our streets, and it always was a very good time and it is a very good time to preach gospel in Ukraine. That’s why, of course, russia, which is very restricted in the matters of religion, evangelical churches are closed, people are persecuted and it’s a conflict in some spiritual realm, because Ukrainian church has freedom and Church have freedom, has freedom and Russian churches are cooperating with government and it’s some kind of control and manipulating and no real spiritual freedom at all.

Brian Stiller

How many evangelical churches would there be in Ukraine now?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Up to 11,000 churches, evangelical churches. The whole number of all churches, including Orthodox and Catholic and Greek Catholic, are 33,000 churches and one third of them are evangelical churches.

Brian Stiller

And do you have your own schools and seminaries and agencies that do social services?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

Yes, of course, because you know, evangelical churches are very active and I think it’s the most active part of Christian church in Ukraine because unfortunately, a lot of especially Orthodox people are very nominal in their faith. The majority of Orthodox people are coming to church only once a year, during Easter services, when evangelical people are coming to church every Sunday and they’re very active. That’s why evangelicals are always in the front line of social ministry, helping people with food, and even now, during the war. The evangelical church is really the salt of the earth and the light to this world, because even our government sees that without a church, without volunteer work of our people, a church without volunteer work of our people, it’s very difficult even to survive in many regions. That’s why I think that now our country is some kind of dependent of the social work which church is doing now.

Brian Stiller

Let’s come back to what it means to pastor in Kiev during this time of war. When the invasion occurred, you preached your first sermon. What were the issues that you had to deal with with your congregation and with people in your community?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk: 16:13

People- who stayed in Kyiv. They needed food, they needed some supplies, some medical resources, and that’s why we tried to help our community as much as we can. At that time, the church was like a house in the darkness and people were coming to church to receive some food, to receive some help, and of course, we preached gospel and we preached them about Jesus. But it was very natural, because at the time everyone needed just to hear some kind words, the words of hope, and people were coming to church and asking okay, what will be next, what we will see in our future? And we said to them, we were saying that of course we don’t have exact answers, but we are trying to do what we can and to believe in best and to believe that God will protect us. That’s why it was, at the same time, it was very dark period and of course, it was the period full of light because we could serve people.

I think as never before and at that time it was our church was not only the bomb shelter. Sometimes it was full with people who were sleeping there just to find some shelter from bombing and from missile attacks. But it was only. It was, it was not only a bomb shelter it, you know, like a shelter for the souls, because people were not only their bodies needed food. Their souls were starving without hope and at that time we did our best just to show them Jesus, to show them hope, to show them that the future still exists. It was something like that. You know the constant struggle with doubts, with difficult questions and, of course, our faith that Jesus is still in control.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, I took the train from Kyiv to the western border to Poland. It was filled with mothers and children, older people, but I was amazed at the resilience and there was a kind of a toughness, a determination to survive. Does this surprise you?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

We are a nation of brave people, you know, sometimes we are saying that in our hearts, freedom is our main value, and just to be free we are ready to make, step by step, to the whole victory. That’s why I was not surprised, because it’s like a nature, it’s like a mentality of our people.

Brian Stiller

When the word went out that there was need, were you surprised by the international response to help at that time?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

You know it was amazing that at the most difficult time, ukrainian people were not alone and I want to say thank you to all people from different countries who supported us and especially, I want to say thank you for World Evangelical Alliance and for you personally for supporting Ukrainian church at that time and supporting till this time. Thank you very much because without foreign help, it was impossible to survive. Of course, as I already said, ukrainian people are fighters, but you know, to fight you need to have some support, and you gave us this support, of course spiritually, of course emotionally, because it’s very important to know that you are not alone in this problem, in this struggle, and, of course, you help us with some practical things. So thank you very much. It was amazing and may God bless you and reward you for everything you did for Ukraine. Thank you very much.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, what were the deep and dark moments for you over these last couple of years?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

I think that the most difficult time was when I had to talk to people who lost their relatives, who lost their relatives, who lost their close ones. It was difficult because, even when these people were not asking this question, I felt the question where was God when my close person, my father, my brother, my mother died? My mother died and, of course, our God doesn’t need our defense, and we are not. You know, we are not trying to explain everything we are going through, but at the same time, I just can say that you, I understand that your loss is very painful, I understand that your suffering is real, but let’s believe that God is still with us. We don’t understand why he allows everything to happen, but we know that he is an expert how to make things better from even the most evil situation, how to use everything for our good.

That’s why I just I just was trying to give some compassion, to give some love and just reminding people that God is still with us. And when we are crying, god is crying. Sometimes I even said that you know where is God now? Okay, where is God now? God is now at the same place where he was when his own son was crucified, and I think that when Ukraine is crucified, now, god is at the same place, he is suffering with us, he, he’s still the same good God, same good God. And when the life becomes evil, god is still good. And you know, it’s like a platform I’m standing on, it’s like the core of my personal belief, and I said this to people in the time of their deepest grief and deepest loss.

Brian Stiller

Were there any kind of Bible texts that you found yourself gravitating to in your preaching and in your pastoral responsibility?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

I read Psalms, psalms of David, because I found a lot of similar feelings in his words. And, of course, my main topic at that time and my main scripture was studying the book of Job, because at that time some people said that, okay, Ukraine is punished for sins, and they even say that Russia is punishing Ukraine on God’s behalf.

And I looked at my Bible and I saw that some Job friends said that Job is punished for his sins, but it was not a real reason for that situation. Job is punished for his sins, but it was not a real reason for that situation. And I found a lot of hope and encouragement because I can compare what I’m going through to what Job was going through at that time. And it was, you know, it was like medicine to my soul because at the end, after all these troubles, after all this suffering, job was restored. And now I believe that my country will be restored, my personal life will be restored, my church will be restored and, of course, I believe in restoration, in spiritual restoration, emotional restoration, emotional healing, and I think that after this war, ukrainian people will be more open to gospel and to coming to Jesus and we will see a lot, of, a lot of conversions. So I believe in bright future for my country and, of course, for Ukrainian church.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, I realize that we are now two years plus into the war and there’s no end in sight, at least immediately. But as you speak to people in other parts of the world, pastors who are in a variety of kind of situations, some in social, political environments where there’s freedom and life and energy, and other places where there’s poverty and there’s civil war, what have you learned and what could you pass on to us even now?

Pastor Mykola Savchuk: 25:39

First of all I want to say that God is never so close to us when it’s difficult, at the most difficult time, we can feel that God is especially close to every heart and I always say I’m always saying that in the darkest time it’s easier to see people full of light. That’s why I want to say one more time, I want to say thank you for everyone who supports our country, everyone who helps us. And, of course, I believe that this war began unexpectedly. It was a big, horrible surprise and I still believe, I’m still believing, that this war will be finished unexpectedly.

Of course, from the logical perspective, it’s almost impossible, but I believe that God is God of miracles and especially looking at the example of David and Goliath, I see that sometimes you can be small, you can be young and it seems impossible to overcome this big giant. But you know, god is a God of miracles and, of course, I cannot compare Ukraine in all things to David in this situation, but I think that the God of David is still my personal God. That’s why I’m still believing that impossible things are possible to my Lord and even when I am on the way to miracle and I am waiting for the miracle, I can feel that he is present with me and it’s the biggest blessing, because I’m not alone and the church in Ukraine is not alone. We have our brothers and sisters from all over the world with us and, of course, our God is with us. So thank you very much.

Brian Stiller

Mykola, it’s so good to see you today. Our God is with us all. Thank you very much, Mykola. It’s so good to see you today. You’ve given us this time to help us better understand the world in which you live, but also the heart in which God works to bring salvation and peace and life to others. So, on behalf of many others around the world, we pray for you and we want you to know that we are supportive of you and the witness of the gospel in your great country. Thank you for being with us today.

Pastor Mykola Savchuk

It was my privilege and honor. Thank you very much.

Brian Stiller

Thanks, Pastor Mykola, for giving us this incredible insight into the reality of pastoring a congregation in the middle of ongoing war. We’re so very grateful that you took time to be with us today.

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